But since you asked, Part 2

Starting a new thread, the responses are getting too long for the comments area.

In answer to RTO Trainer's comments...

Apparently I was completely wrong in my perception that the military is all about rules and following orders. Apparently you all are running around doing whatever you want. My bad for thinking there was a chain of command.

And my only understanding of you personally is being told to drop dead. That alone gives me a pretty good idea of who you are. Do I understand you? Nope. But you’re no great mystery.

And Frank Rich’s point of view made me want to stand up and cheer. Finally someone had the balls to say, not only does The Emperor have no clothes, he’s batshit crazy. I’m sorry, my dear man, but your fearless leader is losing his marbles.

And since you have a clear understanding of your mission, perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us. What exactly is your mission and how will staying longer, doing the same things that aren’t working now, accomplish this mission.

How many homeless vets do you know? How many vets with untreated PTSD, who have lost everything, whose lives are in shambles, do you know? Yes, I realize that many vets went on to be senators, but many, many didn’t. Many were never given the chance to recover because their government (and the American people) forsook them.

And I’ll trot out the armor issue until it’s no longer an issue. And if it a non-issue, then why, when questioned about it, did Rumsfeld say, “You don’t always get to go to war with the army you’d like. Sometimes you have to go with the army you have.” Just gives you a warm fuzzy, doesn’t it?

As far as the financial end goes, you are speaking only for yourself. And I don’t believe I presented it as a universal problem. None of the problems are universal. But the government has a long history of turning it’s back on the very men and women fighting it’s wars. A long history. Hell the government is still fighting the Gulf War vets over whether or not Gulf War Syndrome is real. They don’t want to pay the bills of the vets who came home sick. Same with Agent Orange and the Vietnam Vets. Maybe YOU don’t know of any vets who have GWS, so therefore it’s not true. Just like the vets of Vietnam. If you don’t know any, then it can’t be true.

You said, “The mission can only fail if we go home”. Ok little George, explain to me how we’ll win by staying. The Taliban is stronger now than it was when this war started. Iraq civilians are dying by the thousands. We are breeding young terrorists that we’ll be fighting 10 – 20 years from now. It is quite evident to the rest of us that the Iraqi “troops” are never going to be able to step up and police themselves. If they haven’t been trainable in four years, then something is wrong.

What does “winning” look like? The president can’t tell us. Perhaps you can.

And just so you know, you can call me Tokyo Rose, Jane Fonda, or a Dixie Chick. You people did all the damage to me in 2003 that can be done. You know, back when 79% of the people were in favor of this war. Back when 79% of the people believed George W. Bush to be an honest, righteous man. Family members and loved ones called me a traitor and suggested I might want to find another country to reside in. Calling me Tokyo Rose now barely makes me blink.

And I am truly very sorry that the soldiers don’t understand that wanting this war to end IS being supportive. I just don’t get it. The message is not that they’ve died in vain. The fault does not lie with them. Their country called them and they went. It was not their fault that this call was based on lies and unfounded fear by dishonest and greedy men. They should be welcomed as heroes.

I guess what we’re fighting here is the mentality of soldiers. Again, I’m not one so I can only suppose. You’re given a mission. You’re trained to win at all costs. Anything short of winning makes all the death, destruction, sacrifice, and horror in vain. In your mind, that’s a loss, not a win. So you’ll stay, and stay, and stay. To win. Because if you don’t, it’s all been a waste. So you stay. And stay.

But what if, just what if, you were given a mission that can’t be won? What if the mission you were given wasn’t the true mission at all? What if you were given this mission for less than honorable purposes? What if your leaders lied? Do you stay? And if so, why? So that the ones who’ve died didn’t die in vain? Don’t you see how insane that is?

And come on, RTO, you seem to be an intelligent man. You know darn good and well that the poll didn’t say 53% of Americans said the soldiers who’ve died don’t matter. You lose all credibility when you say that. That poll was worded to do exactly what it did; incite soldiers and Republicans. It simply asked the question; should we send more soldiers to die so as to honor the ones who have already died. That’s exactly what it asked. It’s a stupid question. It’s a stupid concept and I’m surprised you fell for it. But since you did, perhaps you could explain why it has your panties in a wad. So 53% of the people DON’T think it would honor the dead to send more troops to die. Exactly how WOULD that honor them?

And yes I realize that over 70% of the American people were behind this war. Believe me, I know this all too well. I was a woman without a country for several years. But that was because THEY BELIEVED THE PRESIDENT. The believed Saddam was the boogieman. They believed he knocked over the Trade Centers. They believed he had WMDs. They believed we’d be welcomed as liberators. They believed the Iraqis would stick daisies in our rifles. They believed this mission would take only weeks/months (Rumsfeld’s exact words). They believed all the bullshit that was shoveled out by this wonderful, Christian administration. They believed. That, and they were still very angry for 911. Someone had to be punished. Didn’t matter if it was the person who was actually responsible. After all, it didn’t matter to the administration.

Trusting the president was that 70%’s only crime. And now, some four years later, they know the truth. And they’re pissed. And rightfully so. And they want the liars’ heads on a platter. And they want to undo the terrible travesty that these lies caused. But they can’t undo it. So they want the next best thing.

They want an end to this war. That’s not madness. Madness would be to stay the course. As if the truth didn’t matter. As if throwing more lives on the fire would somehow justify the lives already lost.

THAT, my dear man, is madness.

PS. Yes, I’ve heard of you. I live less than ten minutes from the National Guard in Broken Arrow.



UPDATE: For those of you playing along, there is a second conversation going on over here.